Is there any strategy for expanding abroad?

8 years ago

HejTi
Member | 28
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I want to continue in this topic here.

Translation of documentation and some articles will be necessary to make. Some presentations at conferences/barcamps would be great too. But if there isn't any strategy we won't succeed, will we.

I think David should share with us his strategy of introducing Nette in Czech Republic, because it was well done. Yes I know, this is different, but we can get inspired.

I remember something like

  1. a lot of interesting articles and buzz about Nette before it was out
  2. presentations at “PHP framework seminars”
  3. training for celebrities of Czech developer community
  4. professional training offer
  5. community meetings “Last Saturday” (“Poslední sobota” in Czech language)

I think we can discuss the strategy, but what we can do right now is to switch everything about development to english forum.

Last edited by HejTi (2011-08-09 16:06)

8 years ago

HosipLan
Moderator | 4693
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I offer a cake for each translated page of documentation to english, and lolipop for each corrected page.

8 years ago

HejTi
Member | 28
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What about highlight the English version of the forum in the Czech one?

Something like that we will be glad if they will ask in English:
“Nechcete se zeptat anglicky? Pomůžete tím Nette rozšířit do zahraničí.”

8 years ago

Darkry
Member | 103
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Beside documentation we must also translate Nette addons (and also update them to Nette 2.0 beta).

8 years ago

Droid
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Yap, addons should be translated+updated ASAP.

8 years ago

Peppy
Member | 139
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Well, here you are. We are expanding in this big sphere.

8 years ago

HosipLan
Moderator | 4693
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Can someone please take a look at https://doc.nette.org/en/presenters for typos? :) Thanks.

8 years ago

voda
Member | 562
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HosipLan wrote:

Can someone please take a look at https://doc.nette.org/en/presenters for typos? :) Thanks.

I have made some corrections, but more people to look at it are welcome.

8 years ago

Pavel Kouřil
Member | 128
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Well, if anyone is eager to do some proofreading, he can take a look at https://doc.nette.org/…enhancements :)

8 years ago

Petr Stribny
Member | 16
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HosipLan wrote:

Can someone please take a look at https://doc.nette.org/en/presenters for typos? :) Thanks.

I corrected a few mistakes and rewrote some parts. Nevertheless it is a long text and needs more attention.

8 years ago

HejTi
Member | 28
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It's nice sentence on the czech forum, but it doesn't seems to work. :o( But it's still better than before…

Anyway, thank you, David!

Last edited by HejTi (2011-08-16 16:43)

8 years ago

HejTi
Member | 28
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What should be there:
https://nette.org/en/contributors ?

8 years ago

Jan Tvrdík
Nette guru | 2553
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I guess there should be a translation of https://nette.org/cs/contributors.

8 years ago

HejTi
Member | 28
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Thanks. I will help with translation if David provide me the rights.

8 years ago

petr.pavel
Backer | 492
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Hi guys, I think if you're serious about having the site bilingual, you need some tools for translators. The biggest challenge is not as much getting a translation for each page but keeping it up to date. For that you need a system that keeps track of changes and highlights areas on English pages that might be out of sync.

We need a dashboard that lists all pages sorted by their completion status with a note about whether it has been proofread. Perhaps also by the page priority. Some pages are more important than others.
Completion status would be calculated automatically as # of translated paragraphs / total # of paras.

As soon as a single letter changes in the master page (Czech version) the corresponding paragraph in English is marked as incomplete. Yes, we need to link individual paragraphs for that. You can't expect a translator to fish for all changed words in the whole page.

An untranslated page content is taken from the master page. Czech content is not copied though. You don't want to risk having translators translate Czech text that is already out of sync with the master page. The translating page lists English and Czech side by side with text areas for each paragraph.

To be honest, outdated information is the single biggest barrier for Nette in general. Czech docs are incomplete, sometimes outdated. When searching through forums, you can't tell which version and sub-version is the thread related to.

I know that time is short and I'm grateful for what ever there is. I just think that there's no point in translating something that is in a bad shape in the first place. The main focus should be on saving the user's (i.e. the programmer's) time. Opportunity cost is a big thing. Each hour spent fishing through the forum and trying solutions that worked for other versions is wasted money.

David claims that Nette has a steep learning curve but I don't see it that way. Maybe the basics but when you need to go deeper it takes hours and hours.

Anyway, thanks again for Nette and your time, guys. It is much appreciated.

8 years ago

redhead
Member | 1315
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I got a really crazy idea but I have to tell it anyway – get rid of czech and do everything english only. Every major (globe-expanding) framework does that. Even Potencier's Symfony has no french translations.

In this situation, it's contraproductive and difficult to easily maintain both versions. I know that a lot of you will be against it, but I think it would be much more simple that way.

The main con is czech newcomers who don't know english very well. On the other hand, the API isn't in czech either, so..

(if there already was a debate over this, I am sorry, I don't remember it, or I didn't see it)

8 years ago

grey
Member | 94
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redhead wrote:

I got a really crazy idea but I have to tell it anyway – get rid of czech and do everything english only. Every major (globe-expanding) framework does that. Even Potencier's Symfony has no french translations.

In this situation, it's contraproductive and difficult to easily maintain both versions. I know that a lot of you will be against it, but I think it would be much more simple that way.

The main con is czech newcomers who don't know english very well. On the other hand, the API isn't in czech either, so..

(if there already was a debate over this, I am sorry, I don't remember it, or I didn't see it)

I share your view on the subject. There was debate over this some time ago (I also don't remember where) and most of the community wanted the czech version. But I think getting rid of the czech version would be the best thing for the future of framework we could do.

8 years ago

22
Member | 1484
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Guys, I totally disagree with your opinion. The main reason why framework is so popular in Czech is czech forum and documentation. So stop supporting czech forum and documentation is the way how kill Nette, because newbies rather will use some other World popular framework instead of Nette.

Rather I would see enlarged Nette team, where will be some coordinator for expanding abroad.

Here are list of reasons why Nette is not prepared for expansion:

  • still we have only beta version
  • documentation is not finished
  • not existing english screencasts

So will be very careful czech support canceling.

Btw why is there so strong need for expanding abroad. What are the advantages for the moment?

Last edited by 22 (2011-08-29 09:33)

8 years ago

redhead
Member | 1315
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You are contradicting yourself.

How could a newbie use world-popular framework when they are all in english (as Nette would be too)? Also, english screencasts would be the target of english-only Nette of course, so this reason is a bit silly. I would preserve czech forum as well as the documentation but the main focus would be on english, leaving czech behind.

What I mean is that tracking the changes of czech version and update the english is time consuming, slow and difficult.

But as I said before, I didn't expect any good reactions :)

Edit: Also, I know czech is what makes fw popular in CR but we want it to be popular abroad as well. That's, by the way, the goal of this topic and also why we should post on english forum and why the documentation gets translated.

Last edited by redhead (2011-08-29 09:52)

8 years ago

22
Member | 1484
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No, I am not in the contradicting…

I think that newbie rather will choose symfony instead Nette if there are both frameworks only with english version. Thats my point of view. When I was thinking about framework, I choosed Nette, because support was czech and learn a framework and Nette english terminology would be too much for my first php framewrok learning.

8 years ago

HejTi
Member | 28
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I don't think that it would be good to stop Czech version immediately.

Maybe our strategy should be, that we will have basic things in every language – it could by our advantage. Not everything, especially not the documentation. But some quick introduction which helps newbie to overcome first difficult steps… There could be some simple forum to help newbies in “every” language. But not about development of framework, not about the core things… Look at (maybe most wide-used) framework Yii, there are these forums and there are mainly the basic question (if I understand it correctly thank to google translater;o).

And why to make Nette international? If you have some foreigner client, you can't say: “Hey, we'll use framework Nette which is known only in Czech Republic. So if you will need to switch contractor, you won't found any.”

(I'm able to manage translation of some pages to German.)

PS: The button “Translate to English” is perfect!!! Great job! What about “Translate to Czech” for every post in English forum. ;o)

8 years ago

grey
Member | 94
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22 wrote:

No, I am not in the contradicting…

I think that newbie rather will choose symfony instead Nette if there are both frameworks only with english version. Thats my point of view. When I was thinking about framework, I choosed Nette, because support was czech and learn a framework and Nette english terminology would be too much for my first php framewrok learning.

We'll still have new czech programmers incoming, because nette is, in my opinion, most wanted PHP framework in czech companies.

8 years ago

22
Member | 1484
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…but you know the reason, because has czech doc and czech community, its not because is best.

8 years ago

petr.pavel
Backer | 492
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I agree with @22 here and here.

I wouldn't be so quick though, saying that Nette isn't the best. I'm not claiming it is but that's only because of my lack of experience with other frameworks. But Nette definitely plays in the premiere league. I've spent a year on a project in CakePHP 1.2.5. CakePHP seemed to be a good framework until I started working with Nette and got over the first bumps. CakePHP was standing in my way more often than actually helping.

8 years ago

22
Member | 1484
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I meant it in this way: there are some options which you know before you will start using framework. And what I know surely before? If framework is best I can find after some time of usage. But already I know that framework has not official czech support and czech community doesn't exist. Just for clarify…

Last edited by 22 (2011-08-31 10:24)

8 years ago

HejTi
Member | 28
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So, some months last…

I realized that there is no reason why foreigners should use Nette. Nette has no killer feature right now (compared to other well known frameworks).

Yes, there are many good things… but they are not as better as to switch from Sympfony, Yii… to Nette.

Where I see the gap, that there are many programmers who still don't use any frameworks and they won't use in next few years any. Neither Nette. But Nette provides so many useful features as debug bar, neon parser, NotORM, dibi… which can be used independently. So I think the strategy to spread Nette worldwide should be through usage of this Nette parts through small sites like http://ne-on.org. IMHO the very first thing should be the “debug bar” site.